has anyone even tried to watch a game of this map and try to understand anything that is happening at a deeper level than soldiers getting airshots, demos spamming sticks and scouts flank meatshotting medics? Its literally the most absurd thing ever. At no point during a game can you come up with an answer to how the game got to be where it is. At some point while you're watching you realize that "Wow fuck, I actually have no idea what is going on, and haven't for the last 10 minutes."

milehighmilitia wrote:

has anyone even tried to watch a game of this map and try to understand anything that is happening at a deeper level than soldiers getting airshots, demos spamming sticks and scouts flank meatshotting medics? Its literally the most absurd thing ever. At no point during a game can you come up with an answer to how the game got to be where it is. At some point while you're watching you realize that "Wow fuck, I actually have no idea what is going on, and haven't for the last 10 minutes."

Yeah, I can usually follow what the teams are doing pretty easily and see what their mistakes are as well. I would think Scorpio can too, but you know, we've played the map for like 20+ hours.

sure you can follow it, but theres no logical chain of events that gets from point X to point Y in a game.

BadMaps wrote:

atrophy is garbage
standin is garbage
follower is garbage
gullywash is garbage

Said it before and i'll say it again...give cp_waste another chance.

I was reading this thread and enjoying myself

when I stumbled upon "standin is not a clash map" I got really sad on the inside

It's christmas please don't make me sad

milehighmilitia wrote:

sure you can follow it, but theres no logical chain of events that gets from point X to point Y in a game.

Ok, let's look at exp vs snoop and take the first round where snoop split their team. Scouts to A, everyone else to C. This gave exp the B point, at that point exp needed to push into the scouts because they were the easier kill and it would've probably won the round for them. exp instead pushes to C without uber and they drop seagull immediately at the door to massive amounts of spam and a trap, at this point exp is fucked because they lost both A and C at the same time, they're down a pocket, and the rest of their heavies and medic in C connector are very low health. Snoop gets uber, basically takes B at their leisure.

If exp had pushed into the scouts, they would've killed both scouts there, then and they could have let their own scouts bleed out the point and cap while the heavies move back into B to have an exchange with snoop's heavies. exp would have even numbers for several seconds and they could always have one scout push with them to help the fight on B so that they'd have a numbers advantage. exp should be able to win such an exchange and at that point they would have A and B and they can have their scouts start C and the combo sets up in such a way to stop B, support C, or be able to stop the back cap on A.

I believe exp pushed into the scouts the next time snoop split and it went a lot better for them.

Sure, there's still a lot of randomness involved because sometimes people miss their shots or a medic happens to walk into spam or something, but for the most part, it's a pretty logical series of events if you think about it.

That is not to say that sometimes the matches get really stupid and it's just a race between scouts trying to backcap and other scouts trying to stop backcaps. You can always prevent such a thing by happening by just getting the better exchanges on the other team's combo, because if you keep uber advantage, sooner or later you'll get all three points.

gotta fix the second area on waste. the 2-3 transition is quite possibly the worst. ever

waxpax wrote:

milehighmilitia wrote:

sure you can follow it, but theres no logical chain of events that gets from point X to point Y in a game.

Ok, let's look at exp vs snoop and take the first round where snoop split their team. Scouts to A, everyone else to C. This gave exp the B point, at that point exp needed to push into the scouts because they were the easier kill and it would've probably won the round for them. exp instead pushes to C without uber and they drop seagull immediately at the door to massive amounts of spam and a trap, at this point exp is fucked because they lost both A and C at the same time, they're down a pocket, and the rest of their heavies and medic in C connector are very low health. Snoop gets uber, basically takes B at their leisure.

If exp had pushed into the scouts, they would've killed both scouts there, then and they could have let their own scouts bleed out the point and cap while the heavies move back into B to have an exchange with snoop's heavies. exp would have even numbers for several seconds and they could always have one scout push with them to help the fight on B so that they'd have a numbers advantage. exp should be able to win such an exchange and at that point they would have A and B and they can have their scouts start C and the combo sets up in such a way to stop B, support C, or be able to stop the back cap on A.

I believe exp pushed into the scouts the next time snoop split and it went a lot better for them.

Sure, there's still a lot of randomness involved because sometimes people miss their shots or a medic happens to walk into spam or something, but for the most part, it's a pretty logical series of events if you think about it.

That is not to say that sometimes the matches get really stupid and it's just a race between scouts trying to backcap and other scouts trying to stop backcaps. You can always prevent such a thing by happening by just getting the better exchanges on the other team's combo, because if you keep uber advantage, sooner or later you'll get all three points.

Yeah it will just take you 20 minutes though. I'd much rather use mobility vs. beybladers yesterday for evidence as both teams seemed to have a much better grasp on the map. Beybladers abandoned the 3/3 split they ran against us all the time and instead went to B with a majority of the team. This got them cap time on B, but even during the best outcome possible (wiping all of mobility who went to B while dropping no one) they were still at an immediate disadvantage because math already had A capped and now spanker was running to C. They then made the mistake of keeping their scouts around at B and fighting to defend it while they got 90% of C capped and then abandoned it to flank at B. Beybladers got mulched, mobility ran a scout back to finish C and still had B completely controlled.

The opening fight had literally 0 consequence for the rest of the match because the cap at A followed by the back-cap at C was far more important. Which is why I've suggested locking A and C until B is capped so that the opening fight actually has some sort of consequence and who was able to get on the back-cap first doesn't solely determine the outcome of the match.

Juunee wrote:

Where is based mangycarface with ctf_atrophy or ctf_wildf(m?)ire

Juunee wrote:

I'd much rather use mobility vs. beybladers yesterday for evidence as both teams seemed to have a much better grasp on the map.

Oh June....

I like standin. Y'all are a bunch of pussies.

boomer wrote:

Juunee wrote:

I'd much rather use mobility vs. beybladers yesterday for evidence as both teams seemed to have a much better grasp on the map.

Oh June....

Oh right I'm supposed to use "good" teams as evidence instead. Not like everyone who watched the match saw the exact same thing I did.

Then wipe the team at B 6v5, move your scouts to C to either cap or get so much time on it that the other team is severely delayed in capping it. Move your combo into A to kill that scout after he caps so you can start the cap on it faster. The other team is probably either going to defend A or stop C, but they can't really go to A because you have uber on them, so your scouts get as much time on C as they can and back out when the other team shows up, you regroup on B and have your scouts finish A if needed, you then push into C with uber and as much of your team as you can. You should be able to win this fight since you have uber advantage. Cap the last point and win the game.

Like I said, it gets stupid when you have to chase back caps around the map, but as long as you keep your medic up, you'll win eventually. If your med drops, dies, or drops too many people while you're looking for that good exchange to finish the round, you'll lose, though.

I think it favors scouts/soldiers way too much because of how quickly both of those classes can get vertical on many different levels. As a demo or medic if you take one wrong step on B and fall down to ground level, you're pretty much screwed unless you hit miracle pipes or somehow surf away. That being said I think it has potential if the balance between the 4 main classes is found. But right now it kind of feels like scouts/soldiers dominate. It could just be that I haven't found the best positioning as demo yet, but that's my take on it.

Also, June, my little play by play of the snoop vs ex match wasn't to show proper play of the map, specifically, it was to show Miles that there is a logical chain of events during a standin game. Miles seemed to be arguing that the map was bad because it was more a collection of airshots and raw dm than coordinated effort by one team over the other.

I feel like I shouldn't bother theory crafting when the actual match proved everything I said about the map. Sigma died less than Zakrill, Beybladers had 24 frags on them, but math got constant back-caps which always ended up flipping advantage to mobility.

Gotcha wax, but I think mhm has a point in that a successful back-cap can completely flip advantage on the map despite any other goings on. Me and Jackal observed the same thing yesterday when we would watch beybladers have an almost certain win, until a back-cap goes off with time on B and suddenly they're struggling to defend one point.

Juunee wrote:

boomer wrote:

Juunee wrote:

I'd much rather use mobility vs. beybladers yesterday for evidence as both teams seemed to have a much better grasp on the map.

Oh June....

Oh right I'm supposed to use "good" teams as evidence instead. Not like everyone who watched the match saw the exact same thing I did.

Us (snoop) and Mobility used the exact same strat. EXACT same strat, but clearly they understood the map better than us.

We split our team instead of fighting B like them, because we were getting stomped when we tried to fight B, they weren't.

So, same strat, we both win by similar margins, yet they clearly understood the map better than us. Good analysis June

There are two (2) teams required to play a match.

While everyone else here is acknowledging the back-capping meta as being faggish while talking about how playing sigma made them hate the map, I think it's more logical to assume that they've got the better feel for the map than perhaps experiment did.

Juunee wrote:

Gotcha wax, but I think mhm has a point in that a successful back-cap can completely flip advantage on the map despite any other goings on. Me and Jackal observed the same thing yesterday when we would watch beybladers have an almost certain win, until a back-cap goes off with time on B and suddenly they're not struggling to defend one point.

A successful backcap on a 5cp can completely flip the advantage despite other goings on too, though. Backcaps are gay, but they don't only happen on standin.

I mean, if you hold blands last and and wipe everyone on the other team while holding your uber advantage, you should be able to go all the way to at least mid before you have any real resistance, but if a scout spawns at the right time and runs thru drop down and to last without you noticing and you didn't leave anyone on last, you just lost the round.

If you're fighting for A and a scout goes to C and you don't do something about it quickly enough, you're going to lose that point and maybe the round if it goes badly.

Doesn't matter if it's a push map or a domination map, backcaps happen, they can win rounds, and they are gay, but they're preventable; either by quickly sending someone to stop it, or clearing exits on your way to the next point.

waxpax wrote:

Juunee wrote:

Gotcha wax, but I think mhm has a point in that a successful back-cap can completely flip advantage on the map despite any other goings on. Me and Jackal observed the same thing yesterday when we would watch beybladers have an almost certain win, until a back-cap goes off with time on B and suddenly they're not struggling to defend one point.

A successful backcap on a 5cp can completely flip the advantage despite other goings on too, though. Backcaps are gay, but they don't only happen on standin.

I mean, if you hold blands last and and wipe everyone on the other team while holding your uber advantage, you should be able to go all the way to at least mid before you have any real resistance, but if a scout spawns at the right time and runs thru drop down and to last without you noticing and you didn't leave anyone on last, you just lost the round.

If you're fighting for A and a scout goes to C and you don't do something about it quickly enough, you're going to lose that point and maybe the round if it goes badly.

Doesn't matter if it's a push map or a domination map, backcaps happen, they can win rounds, and they are gay, but they're preventable; either by quickly sending someone to stop it, or clearing exits on your way to the next point.

You're never going to see a back-cap happening every round on a 5cp map though. They're easily preventable on 5cp maps and so the advantage loss there is actually understandable. I'm going to continue pointing out tyranny saying how freely scouts can maneuver through spawn to go to back-caps because it proves that it is nearly impossible to keep real presence on both ends of the map continuously. Failing a back-cap has real implications on a 5cp map as well, while on standin the recap time is so slow that you can continue running points while slowly edging out the other teams advantage despite the fact that you are holding down w until you're on a point.

The back cap threat makes scout 1v1s matter. I like it.

Juunee wrote:

waxpax wrote:

Juunee wrote:

Gotcha wax, but I think mhm has a point in that a successful back-cap can completely flip advantage on the map despite any other goings on. Me and Jackal observed the same thing yesterday when we would watch beybladers have an almost certain win, until a back-cap goes off with time on B and suddenly they're not struggling to defend one point.

A successful backcap on a 5cp can completely flip the advantage despite other goings on too, though. Backcaps are gay, but they don't only happen on standin.

I mean, if you hold blands last and and wipe everyone on the other team while holding your uber advantage, you should be able to go all the way to at least mid before you have any real resistance, but if a scout spawns at the right time and runs thru drop down and to last without you noticing and you didn't leave anyone on last, you just lost the round.

If you're fighting for A and a scout goes to C and you don't do something about it quickly enough, you're going to lose that point and maybe the round if it goes badly.

Doesn't matter if it's a push map or a domination map, backcaps happen, they can win rounds, and they are gay, but they're preventable; either by quickly sending someone to stop it, or clearing exits on your way to the next point.

You're never going to see a back-cap happening every round on a 5cp map though. They're easily preventable on 5cp maps and so the advantage loss there is actually understandable. I'm going to continue pointing out tyranny saying how freely scouts can maneuver through spawn to go to back-caps because it proves that it is nearly impossible to keep real presence on both ends of the map continuously. Failing a back-cap has real implications on a 5cp map as well, while on standin the recap time is so slow that you can continue running points while slowly edging out the other teams advantage despite the fact that you are holding down w until you're on a point.

People have more experience with 5cp maps, though, it's easier for them to think about how they'd stop a backcap. You know where to look for people and you know who you need to send back if something gets behind you. standin is new, a lot of people have no idea how to really play it and having to coordinate two fronts as a caller can be challenging. When you see a backcap start on standin, you have to immediately judge if you can out cap it, if you have to send someone to stop it, or if you want to just give it up to hold onto the other advantages you might have and recap later, and since there's never really a stalemate that gives you time to think, you have to make that decision really quickly or you lose.

I like standin because it's dynamic and you have to react quickly, there's strategy, and it challenges me as a medic to stay alive while I try to direct my team. Wins on standin feel better than on regular 5cp because it's so much more punishing if I play badly on standin and it's more rewarding to finish a standin game with a low death count than a push map.

Standin isn't perfect though, but Scorpio is already thinking of ways to improve it. I wanted Process to get in this season, but I'm still happy that standin got in and I hope that we give Scorpio an opportunity to make it better for next season than vote it out and have to play warmfront again (I really hate that map, though my reasons are mainly personal. Shoutout to the Blunder of the Century!)

If you want to just write off everyone as being inexperienced with the map then no one has any actual input on the subject. I'd like to think people already know what to do on the map but the map itself doesn't lend itself to anything other than back-capping and running away. If you seriously think that the recap times on this map aren't horrendously broken then I'm pretty sure at this point we can dismiss you as being wrong about the matter. Even IF you stop the back-cap the amount of time already put on it still makes it viable for them to continue pressuring it.

The most apt 5cp comparison I can think of would be if spires weren't locked on badlands. Teams would be much more likely to stand in choke spamming at each other so they wouldn't get back-capped because fully committing to mid would almost guarantee getting a run behind to spire which would lose you the round. It makes the clash at mid irrelevant and for the most part optional as back-capping would constantly be the better option.

understanding what the other team is doing and where they are going is a huge part of this map. it allows scouts to go where they please and force things to happen for the combo to pick up on.

keeping presence isn't a problem. they send one scout to a point, one of your scouts goes to either scare him off or outright kill him in a 1v1, which I enjoyed greatly.

my concern is after everyone has picked up on this 'move around the map and cap' thing the map will become a massive stalemate and we end up with 1-0, 2-0 scores after an hour. can't wait for that.

The cap time is one of the things I was including in the "standin isn't perfect but scorpio is looking to fix the map." As I understand it, the revert time is built into the game, and it's based on the cap time. Scorpio could probably fix the slow revert quickly by making the points cap faster, but that would probably be a stupid fix. I haven't talked to him about he's going to fix it, but I have faith that he'll figure something out. You and the rest of the community should show him a little faith, too, especially considering the fact that he's one of the only people making comp maps.

Stop needlessly attacking the map and help point out ways to make it better. The map isn't broken to the point that it has to be abandoned yet. Scorpio takes all the feedback he can get, it's the major reason I like testing his maps, if you politely tell him what needs to be fixed and offer ways to do it, he'll implement them.

Or you can just constantly piss in the wind and try to tear everything you see down instead of trying to help others build.

The fact that the map has spawned this much debate which ultimately boils down to someone got raped by a strat another team used and they are mad means the map is good for competition and should stick around.

i say we play standin 4 times each season, and in the playoffs

dkm wrote:

Juunee wrote:

If you want to just write off everyone as being inexperienced with the map then no one has any actual input on the subject. I'd like to think people already know what to do on the map but the map itself doesn't lend itself to anything other than back-capping and running away. If you seriously think that the recap times on this map aren't horrendously broken then I'm pretty sure at this point we can dismiss you as being wrong about the matter. Even IF you stop the back-cap the amount of time already put on it still makes it viable for them to continue pressuring it.

The most apt 5cp comparison I can think of would be if spires weren't locked on badlands. Teams would be much more likely to stand in choke spamming at each other so they wouldn't get back-capped because fully committing to mid would almost guarantee getting a run behind to spire which would lose you the round. It makes the clash at mid irrelevant and for the most part optional as back-capping would constantly be the better option.

Standin is a completely different map gameplay than 5cp. Stop trying to apply 5cp logic to domination. The map faults that you've pointed out, such as respawn times, can and should be improved as long as the map stays relevant for another season. Most of the back-cap discussion is a clash of difference in strategy between 5cp and domination. Just because you don't agree with the strategy of back-cap in 5cp doesn't mean that it is unreasonable for domination. Neither does it make standin a horrible map. It is a function of the map time.

Had the original TF2 map been domination style, many people in the community probably would've hated the appearance of 5cp push map, where backcaps aren't easily achievable.

I think standin should stay in the rotation for at least another season. Give the community more time to develop a comfort level with the gameplay style and then we can argue whether or not the map is terrible. Having standin appear this late in the season, and it being the first season in rotation, doesn't do the map justice.

If you personally don't like the strategies in domination, then that's fine. But it is a viable strategy and expect others to use it. Come up with a strategy to mitigate it.

My entire fucking argument has been that there is currently no (0) strategy that can mitigate the effectiveness of back-capping on this map. Something that I convinced Jackal of yesterday, has been agreed upon by most people now, and has been openly acknowledged as a problem with the map. I already suggested that we fix standin and keep it because I feel that if the changes me and jackal agreed upon were implemented the map would actually be fun. A large opening clash from locking A and C makes DM important, maintains the fast-pace, while still affording for cerebral play after it has been capped.

But what do I know, I've just been continuously proven right by match play.

P.S. the argument that if it was 5cp being introduced now we'd hate it is retarded, you can't admit that the map has several broken features all crediting a single strategy and then tell me that strategy just needs to be mitigated.

boomer wrote:

The back cap threat makes scout 1v1s matter. I like it.

well, that was a hard strategy to come up with. who would've thought to send one scout to fight another scout over a point. genius.

June, how the fuck is it backcapping when there is no LAST point? It's just capping, STFU with the fucking backcapping argument.