Ok, so I am not sigma or some bad ass caller. But last night I think I learned that some people are misinformed about the badlands "forward hold".

Basically, for newer players, a forward hold is used when you have uber disadvantage to cover all entrances and exits into badlands last when you have all players up to do so. This forces the pushing team to either a) uber scouts into the doors to push last or b) sneak a spy either through upper batts or the 2 entrance doors or c) have your team climb spire and spam out the defending team in lobby.

This hold allows your team (who does not have uber) to safely stay alive long enough for your team to (hopefully) regain uber advantage. And potentially not lose a round just because your team was wiped at mid.

So to recap, my belief is... you get wiped at mid or at least your medic dies.. you hold forward in attempt to negate the other team's uber push into last to keep defending team-mates alive. In other words, if you have even ubers the safer thing would be to just hold last like normal. Correct?

Here is another Link describing how to hold and why.

Thoughts or comments?

Isn't the danger of forward holding that they'll climb spire and come through right side / uber two soldiers into front door and jump upper lobby? For the former, is it wiser to just fall back to last if that's spotted? Or would collective spam be wiser. For the latter, I'm guessing falling back is the course of action?

Oh yeah you could do that too shootist. My bad. Did not list that one. Updating. Thanks :)

when ubers are even holding last normally is less risky, but that doesn't mean a forward hold is entirely pointless

if you're really confident in your ability to get them to pop super early/ability to stop any backcap then it might be worth it anyways imo just for the ability to get to spire more quickly

You're suppose to fall to last once you get around 85% (provided the other team doesn't fuck up ofcouse), the idea is you defend last with uber as opposed to no uber if you just stayed at last and let them get cap spire + move lobby. You're in a really bad position if their medic climbs spire and they attack thru top lobby, with or without uber.

I don't see any advantage of holding top lobby uber v uber compared to holding last point.

I guess the exception is you get some kills when they try to cap spire / move into lobby and want to retake spire -> see provided the other team doesn't fuck up.

Also take a look at bowts posts if you haven't already, guy's a genius.

In short list format:

Hold forward to buy time

-== Enemy Team responds by:

-== Opening the doors and getting killed or forced

You run to last and laugh

-== Climbing the spire, jumping bats and slow pushing for lobby

You run to last; hopefully this has bought time for you to have uber.

If ubers are even, considering the time it takes to set up a forward hold, it's probably actually better to try for a ninja or off class play. Ubers are even; they're just going to make you pop at their leisure (unless they're really antsy or silly) and won't be in any big hurry to get into last anyways so you're not really punishing them by forcing them to climb spire or bleed a player or two.

Worst case scenario they four man suicide from bats and you lose your uber advantage (even if you manage to retake spire they still have spawns and probably uber so they'll just leap frog you and take spire away again). Or they back cap by spy play (easily accomplished with DR, C&D, or stock).

Best case scenario you prolong the round by 30 odd seconds as they climb which isn't a bad situation to put them in, if you're going for a ninja or off class play.

--

The real question being asked here is, isn't it "better" to hold forward than to just hold last in general, to which the answer is definitely no, because it's nearly impossible to maintain an adequate forward hold while also absolutely preventing back-caps. There's still a chance you could catch a spy play (from watching Killing's stream you guys nearly did) or a scout may find a DR through the doors for example, and perhaps if you're in the lead why not just frustrate the other team - but if you're losing already they have no reason not to just stand on the bridge or in trash all day and come up with creative ways to punish you for standing there.

back up to last when you have uber

You guys got spy capped last night because you held forward even after you negated the other team's uber advantage.

That was actually pretty smart from Team iT, I never thought about that.

Killing12 wrote:

You guys got spy capped last night because you held forward even after you negated the other team's uber advantage.

That was actually pretty smart from Team iT, I never thought about that.

Yeah it was a good play by them. But bad on our part because we should have backed up once we got uber. Just dont want other teams making the same mistake. o.O

gotta be honest though, half our team knew that it was a possibility but no one other than cheeriss spoke up about it so we just stayed there lol

I think it would be best to keep a couple people at last (Demo and a scout probably) and have everyone else hold forward, to prevent spycapping.

hookyboysb wrote:

I think it would be best to keep a couple people at last (Demo and a scout probably) and have everyone else hold forward, to prevent spycapping.

Demo needs to sticky doors in lower lobby. It is really easy to get pushed back in any situation if you are fighting a 6 v 4

the original post sums the whole thread up, there really isn't need for 2 much discussion unless someone has found some other reason to forward hold other than making them pop early

If you have uber: Don't hold foward because that's just asking to get back capped.

If you don't have uber and the other team does: Do a foward hold(roamer watches dropdown, demo watches lower lobby doors, pocket watches left batts aka watch for the medic to climb spire, scouts chill in main to prevent anything fishy like a spycap). Once the pocket sees the medic climbing spire that's your queue to backup as a team and hold last with(hopefully) even ubers.

If you try to hold foward uber v uber and take the uber fight in lobby/batts/grey bridge it can be assumed that you are trying to push out quickly. With that in mind, if you are trying to push out during or after the uber from said positions and any single person on your team loses a 1v1 you will get back capped.

Phrakture_ wrote:

hookyboysb wrote:

I think it would be best to keep a couple people at last (Demo and a scout probably) and have everyone else hold forward, to prevent spycapping.

Demo needs to sticky doors in lower lobby. It is really easy to get pushed back in any situation if you are fighting a 6 v 4

Then how do you prevent spycaps? A spy could easily go in lower lobby with someone else and not be detected. They would just need to stay on opposite sides.

scouts chill in main to prevent anything fishy like a spycap

hookyboysb wrote:

Then how do you prevent spycaps? A spy could easily go in lower lobby with someone else and not be detected. They would just need to stay on opposite sides.

stickies on both doors. doors open, you right click. also, scouts at main.

Well I definitely can't read.

Also why can't I -frag myself

easier to make mistakes on a foward hold, I always call back to last once we have 80-85%

To me, holding Blands last is half the fun of Blands. If I don't feel 100% confident about holding yard, I feel much more comfortable holding last and coming up with a good defense, waiting for then to push last, staying alive during ubers amd then destroying them post uber. I feel okay leaving last with my entire team when entire enemy team is dead.

I was trying to explain this to my demo yesterday. He still doesn't like the hold though.

holding forward helps to push back on second provided we can get a pick during our hold or get an easy force as they're coming through the doors/as they try to play more passive while they wait for their player to spawn.
If the enemy team climbs spire you need to leave and if you lose a player you need to leave. You should always have someone semi close to last though to prevent spies and people getting behind you in general.

marmadukeGRYLLS wrote:

hookyboysb wrote:

Then how do you prevent spycaps? A spy could easily go in lower lobby with someone else and not be detected. They would just need to stay on opposite sides.

stickies on both doors. doors open, you right click. also, scouts at main.

Climb spire, jump to batts, spy cap (you can make this with the IW). Last caps so fast that I don't think Scouts at main can stop a single spy on it unless you have sticks on the cap or the Scouts are basically at last instead of being more in main.

e:
If there's a guy there at the edge of batts then approach spire as a friendly disguise, if you use the IW then you can climb/cloak up to the 2nd level of spire, wait a very short bit there uncloaked, then cloak the rest of the way thru batts into last, if you use the C&D you can do it all the way cloaked but it takes slightly longer.

Why wouldn't you have your roamer watching left bat?

Juunee wrote:

Why wouldn't you have your roamer watching left bat?

At least for my team, we have the pocket hold upper left because that is the quickest route for teams who climb spire. And you want someone who can tank damage at that place, in other words your pocket.

It's hyper easy to bail from that spot, better off leaving your med on bottom of stairs with the pocket on stairs looking at grey bridge door. Putting your med up makes it easy for them to push bridge with an uber and just jump and pop you.

the med needs to be near the middle top door to get out if they come in early. He will most likely drop back with the demo so he'll be pretty safe. Soldiers are watching the 2 bat doors and scouts support 1 soldier each and watch the 2 bottom doors for the scout rush.

As #27 said that's how it is done :D I actually like having both scouts on the ground, one on each exit (lower stairs, and main) just so they can be sure to absolutely discourage any entry into the lower doors, while the demo, roamer, pocket are usually enough to dissuade people from rushing bats right away - plus the pocket has immediate scout help.

Basically, here is how I like to exit the forward hold.

I like making sure the roamer is *off* of bats before we all start to exit just to minimize the chance that he'll get caught out because he was too deep on bats or was spamming somebody on diagonal. In the event that we're voluntarily giving up the forward hold. Early on when we practiced this hold a lot we found that typically, if anybody dies while falling back, it's the roamer, since he can't really use his jumps to move anywhere up there and he's going to have a tendency to get antsy and have no heals, and if they rapidly push upper lobby from bats, all of his escape routes will be contested (if he's lucky he can drop out of drop down and then just walk in the grey-bridge or trash door and force a pop if it all goes badly lol).

You only need 4 players to hold. Medic, Demo on rollers, Soldier at drop down, soldier watching battlements left door (whatever u call it). Usually you can have both scouts make a play and they will respawn to help fight the last push. Or you can switch out a scout for engie and get an early sentry.

I've only had a scout backcap (thru roller) maybe once or twice post-bonk. In theory it's possible to cap before a soldier/demo can kill you on the point, but who is capping spire against your two roaming scouts? I don't know the specifics, teams rarely uber/suicide thru roller doors.

bonk isn't allowed in esea?