please keep talking about fighting games

Guilty gear is my favorite fighting game

ssbm 4 lyfe

bonk is balanced because in ssbm you can use captain falcon and captain falcon has the knee attack and its really op because it does all the damage and can kill people and captain falcon is also the fastest and has a really good range and can use the knee attack and the developers never put any thought into balancing it so it just kind of ruins the game and you have to adapt

I can respect your choice in fighting games

King of Fighters. I'm pretty shit at fighting games though. :(

someday you guys will learn to not respond to jazzy posts
page three was not this day

Vortex wrote:

Classic debate technique. "You're wrong, I'm right. I'm not going to respond to any of the points made in the past 2 pages and am going to leave on this note."

yeah i figured i was outclassed once i went up against the ever classic "well this SPECIFIC ASPECT of my argument is correct, therefore my argument is correct." highest *potential* dpm + can somewhat control chokes = dabes, right?

synchro wrote:

bonk is balanced because in ssbm you can use captain falcon and captain falcon has the knee attack and its really op because it does all the damage and can kill people and captain falcon is also the fastest and has a really good range and can use the knee attack and the developers never put any thought into balancing it so it just kind of ruins the game and you have to adapt

Well thanks for using an terrible analogy that isn't true :P, yes i know your making fun of me. Too bad in my jokes about tf2 gameplay they are mostly true

marmadukeGRYLLS wrote:

Vortex wrote:

Classic debate technique. "You're wrong, I'm right. I'm not going to respond to any of the points made in the past 2 pages and am going to leave on this note."

yeah i figured i was outclassed once i went up against the ever classic "well this SPECIFIC ASPECT of my argument is correct, therefore my argument is correct." highest *potential* dpm + can somewhat control chokes = dabes, right?

Medic is best class in game right, decent open teams can defeat invite teams if they don't have a medic.

marmadukeGRYLLS wrote:

highest *potential* dpm + can somewhat control chokes = dabes, right?

get your facts straight

I don't know why more demos don't offclass.

Oh wait, yes I do. Because doing the most damage to multiple targets and controlling chokes is kind of important in a TEAM and PUSH BASED game.

It's silly to think that just because a scout can easily 1v1 a demo that it means he's a better and more important class. You also didn't answer my question a few pages back, you must have thought it was either rhetorical or obvious. As a roamer, which picks do you find the most important for bombs? With your argument, your answer should be "bomb scouts - win game".

Yo dawgs, I'm the Tf2 community, i play a butchered patched together bastard child of a game that is just barely playable because we got a group of people to make rules so we could salvage a somewhat competitive game. Lets not use and scorn examples and criticism from other more successful and more proven competitive games and genres because their balance and gameplay principles and methods have no possible way that could benefit in our understanding of TF2. 6v6 with class restriction is sacred and no other game is in anyway like it at all. Remember, we as the TF2 community understand our game so well that after the 6v6 format has been out for nearly 5 years that we don't have a total consensus on who is the most overall useful and influential combat class in that format.

Jazzy wrote:

Yo dawgs, I'm the Tf2 community, i play a butchered patched together bastard child of a game that is just barely playable because we got a group of people to make rules so we could salvage a somewhat competitive game.~~~ Remember, we as the TF2 community understand our game so well that after the 6v6 format has been out for nearly 5 years that we don't have a total consensus on who is the most overall useful and influential combat class in that format.

If its so bad why play and why care?

Also admins lock this? Its going nowhere and the "discussion" is just going in circles and not doing any good.

LtCrumpet wrote:

someday you guys will learn to not respond to jazzy posts
page three was not this day

I have so much to learn from you

Jazzy wrote:

Yo dawgs, I'm the Tf2 community, i play a butchered patched together bastard child of a game that is just barely playable because we got a group of people to make rules so we could salvage a somewhat competitive game. Lets not use and scorn examples and criticism from other more successful and more proven competitive games and genres because their balance and gameplay principles and methods have no possible way that could benefit in our understanding of TF2. 6v6 with class restriction is sacred and no other game is in anyway like it at all. Remember, we as the TF2 community understand our game so well that after the 6v6 format has been out for nearly 5 years that we don't have a total consensus on who is the most overall useful and influential combat class in that format.

ok ok, last response. Let me make your life simpler for you.

The list of weapons banned on ESEA is decided by the 8 captains of the 8 ESEA-I teams. Each captain who has 30 times more experience that you will ever have with the game and at its highest level.

So yeah, I am sure they banned bonk for a reason. If you want a throughout explanation, ask one of them and stop being such an uneducated idiot.

But fighting games are better than TF2 so he obviously knows what is best for the TF2 community. Invite captains have nowhere near his amount of knowledge.

Freakin wrote:

But fighting games are better than TF2 so he obviously knows what is best for the TF2 community. Invite captains have nowhere near his amount of knowledge.

nice man, misunderstanding every single post Ive ever made on this thread, I don't give a flying shit about what happens to TF2, i don't even care what you do with your game, I'm offering a different perspective and merely asking people to question the assumptions that the TF2 competitive community has come to about their own game.

Oh yeah games aren't "better" they can't be(But in my humble opinion there are many fighting games so wretchedly horrible and broken that pub TF2 looks like god send in terms of balance). Many of the games i speak about have proven to be more competitive than tf2 despite having gameplay mechanics being against the very assumptions that the community uses to validate banning items.

MvC3 to me personally, is a steaming pile of shit, i absolutely bloody fucking hate MvC3 and Umvc3. Why, has gameplay features in it that i don't like, But it is still the most popular fighting game out there and the better player wins most of the time and it is exciting and skilled and has tons of depth. Still hate it. And if you want to understand the point of me bringing this up, its not say "oh god i hate fighting games too" its just saying hey, even if they game has some at first thought "stupid" shit, that it can still be a good, skilled, and competitive game. And that was my point from the very beginning, and my point EVERY SINGLE TIME I BADGER PEOPLE ABOUT BANS. I don't actually care what you ban, as long as the better players wins most of the time you will still have a competitive game almost no matter what you add. But every single time i do this everybody and their god damn mother misunderstands where I'm coming from. It's easy to shit on competitive TF2, it's even easier to shit on MvC3.

Scholar wrote:

Jazzy wrote:

Yo dawgs, I'm the Tf2 community, i play a butchered patched together bastard child of a game that is just barely playable because we got a group of people to make rules so we could salvage a somewhat competitive game. Lets not use and scorn examples and criticism from other more successful and more proven competitive games and genres because their balance and gameplay principles and methods have no possible way that could benefit in our understanding of TF2. 6v6 with class restriction is sacred and no other game is in anyway like it at all. Remember, we as the TF2 community understand our game so well that after the 6v6 format has been out for nearly 5 years that we don't have a total consensus on who is the most overall useful and influential combat class in that format.

ok ok, last response. Let me make your life simpler for you.

The list of weapons banned on ESEA is decided by the 8 captains of the 8 ESEA-I teams. Each captain who has 30 times more experience that you will ever have with the game and at its highest level.

So yeah, I am sure they banned bonk for a reason. If you want a throughout explanation, ask one of them and stop being such an uneducated idiot.

And im gonna reply to this too, im gonna invalidate every single fucking invite player or good player in any game, ever and why they are not extremely useful for guess what... balance predictions. Do you know how many times the BEST players in every single mainstay competitive game are wrong about balance changes? Daigo, the best street fighter player in the world was wrong about the yun vs zangeif matchup. Ended up yun favored, he was wrong, and that was after a couple months of playing with the very the best in the world.

Hell this is an example that i know of that's only in the fighting game community with the recent game skullgirls. Mike Z is a tournament winner of MVC2, Guilty gear and blazblue. Played the game for months with some of the best fighting game players in the world, doesn't have a clue of the tier list, and these gameplay changes even he admits he has no idea how the tiers or teams are gonna pan out after these changes. HE DESIGNED THE GAME, IS CURRENTLY THE BEST SKULLGIRLS PLAYER IN THE WORLD, AND HAS WON TONS OF TOURNAMENTS IN TONS OF DIFFERENT GAMES AND HE DOESN'T KNOW! How many times have you heard the top players in the fucking world say utter horse shit when they talked about SC2 and they ended up being wrong?

Point, you can't fucking know about gameplay changes unless you do lots and lots of testing. Hey, some could be right with their essentially guesses in the dark, others could be very very very wrong.

video games are my favorite video games

all these paragraphs I don't have time to read this

go back the average post length of 1-3 sentences please dear god
I mean it would be different if the paragraphs (by this I mean Jazzy) included informations but it is 1 sentence on the topic and 10 sentences of "omg tf2 sucks I don't care about this shit game look at me fighting games fighting games woop woop"

By the way EVO2012 get hype

swedes wrote:

all these paragraphs I don't have time to read this

go back the average post length of 1-3 sentences please dear god
I mean it would be different if the paragraphs (by this I mean Jazzy) included informations but it is 1 sentence on the topic and 10 sentences of "omg tf2 sucks I don't care about this shit game look at me fighting games fighting games woop woop"

By the way EVO2012 get hype

If you think that, then learn to read you mental midget... Also, that's why, i have to explain REASONING behind arguments and intent, because people are too fucking stupid to figure it out that they come insinuate conclusions and then say stupid shit. Ive made my intent clear pretty hard in like every fucking post and in past threads about balance/bans, its just dumb shits like you that just don't get it. Learn to follow a subject that is more than 1-3 sentence long. Cause guess what, gameplay changes are complicated enough to talk entire fucking books worth of relevant information. So try to go in some other threads like, I don't know... big tits are nice, i wish i had a larger penis, and my little pony is gay.

Jazzy wrote:

Scholar wrote:

Jazzy wrote:

Yo dawgs, I'm the Tf2 community, i play a butchered patched together bastard child of a game that is just barely playable because we got a group of people to make rules so we could salvage a somewhat competitive game. Lets not use and scorn examples and criticism from other more successful and more proven competitive games and genres because their balance and gameplay principles and methods have no possible way that could benefit in our understanding of TF2. 6v6 with class restriction is sacred and no other game is in anyway like it at all. Remember, we as the TF2 community understand our game so well that after the 6v6 format has been out for nearly 5 years that we don't have a total consensus on who is the most overall useful and influential combat class in that format.

ok ok, last response. Let me make your life simpler for you.

The list of weapons banned on ESEA is decided by the 8 captains of the 8 ESEA-I teams. Each captain who has 30 times more experience that you will ever have with the game and at its highest level.

So yeah, I am sure they banned bonk for a reason. If you want a throughout explanation, ask one of them and stop being such an uneducated idiot.

And im gonna reply to this too, im gonna invalidate every single fucking invite player or good player in any game, ever and why they are not extremely useful for guess what... balance predictions. Do you know how many times the BEST players in every single mainstay competitive game are wrong about balance changes? Daigo, the best street fighter player in the world was wrong about the yun vs zangeif matchup. Ended up yun favored, he was wrong, and that was after a couple months of playing with the very the best in the world.

Hell this is an example that i know of that's only in the fighting game community with the recent game skullgirls. Mike Z is a tournament winner of MVC2, Guilty gear and blazblue. Played the game for months with some of the best fighting game players in the world, doesn't have a clue of the tier list, and these gameplay changes even he admits he has no idea how the tiers or teams are gonna pan out after these changes. HE DESIGNED THE GAME, IS CURRENTLY THE BEST SKULLGIRLS PLAYER IN THE WORLD, AND HAS WON TONS OF TOURNAMENTS IN TONS OF DIFFERENT GAMES AND HE DOESN'T KNOW! How many times have you heard the top players in the fucking world say utter horse shit when they talked about SC2 and they ended up being wrong?

Point, you can't fucking know about gameplay changes unless you do lots and lots of testing. Hey, some could be right with their essentially guesses in the dark, others could be very very very wrong.

But Bonk wasn't banned before it was used in the 6v6 format. It was used until people said hey these backcaps/uber blocking/free intel/free flanks are annoying and disrupt the game.

As a sniper, aim for the head to do critical damage.

Freakin wrote:

But Bonk wasn't banned before it was used in the 6v6 format. It was used until people said hey these backcaps/uber blocking/free intel/free flanks are annoying and disrupt the game.

This is true. It's also true that TF2 has no objective criteria for banning weapons. It allows some weapons that heal and others that don't; some weapons that give invuln and others that don't; some weapons that increase mobility, but others that don't etc.

Banning after play testing (a la Bonk and Batallion's Backup) is good. A systematic and objective approach would be better.

EDIT: Phrasing

It'd be really hard to come up with an effective set of objective rules on what weapons should be banned or not. I personally have no idea how to accomplish that. If you have a plan layed out, I would love to hear your thoughts.

The problem with testing out all of the items is scale; we don't have the player base to test all of the combinations out at the proper skill levels. It really sucks because we'll never be as big as CS or whatever without Valve's support, which we'll also never get. :/

If you don't remember, I made this thread, so I care about the information. I did read the majority of your posts, and I just wish you would spend more time on topic and get your point across in a way that doesn't involve calling someone a mental midget and shit. This thread would have been more useful if you never posted in it.

And yeah yeah I know responding to Jazzy is worthless blah blah zippity doo bop

edit: pretty much every thread would be more useful if you never posted in it

swedes wrote:

If you don't remember, I made this thread, so I care about the information. I did read the majority of your posts, and I just wish you would spend more time on topic and get your point across in a way that doesn't involve calling someone a mental midget and shit. This thread would have been more useful if you never posted in it.

And yeah yeah I know responding to Jazzy is worthless blah blah zippity doo bop

edit: pretty much every thread would be more useful if you never posted in it

Im just gonna show how you have bad reading skills right now, and should probably you know, stop reading posts because that is difficult. so You made a statement that i have 10 sentences of tf2 shitting and 1 sentence of content. Well i know that implies that I'm shitting on TF2 more than other content in individual posts.

post #112 doesn't talk about Tf2 in negative light at all
post #111 i didn't know that not caring about tf2 is shitting on it? i didn't know that calling the community ignorant is shitting on TF2. I make 1 jab on pub TF2. So perhaps you should learn that shitting on a community is different than shitting on a game(you know that would require thought)

post #106 has 1 sentence where i shit on TF2, the rest I shit on the community perception of their own game.

Post #103 is a joke, hope you understand that
Post #102 says nothing bad about tf2
Post #61 says nothing bad about tf2
Post #64 shits on the community, but not the game
Post #66 praises the community for adapting to gay shit
Post #72 doesn't shit on TF2 at all
Post #74 shits on invite players(but if you understand my point ALL players in every game ever, i hate clarifying this because people are fucking stupid)
Post #76 just says i disagree with how the community does bans... not shitting on TF2
Post #80 Is shitting on stupid people like yourself swedes
Post #83 Shits on Tyrone and his reasons, didn't shit on TF2 at all
Post #85 is a joke
Post #87 shits on Tf2 in no way other than saying it had to do restrictions in the first place to competitive(IMPLIED)
Post #90 Well i guess shitting on the fact that 12v12 is stalemate hell is shitting on TF2, and saying the game is broken without class restrictions is shitting on it as well... I thought this was Common knowledge? That's not saying a thing about competitive TF2 its talking about pub TF2 witch is basically a different game. Rest of post doesnt Shit on Tf2
Post #51 doesnt shit on TF2
Post #54 doesnt shit on TF2

Ok... so your full of shit Swedes and atleast with this statement, appear to be fucking retarded. You somehow came to a conclusion that is damn near the exact opposite of the content i produced in this thread. Unless of course shitting on mentality is also considered on shitting on TF2 your not even vaguely correct with your statements. Oh yeah, i think competitive TF2 is a good game by the way, i just dislike the skill-set needed to be a top player within the game and i dislike the communities active hours.

craft bonk get metal

edit: I feel like bonk would be fair in 6s if the invulnerability ended before the inability to attack did, then you could still run in and shake it up but it wouldn't be a free "Hi let me change my position or fuck with yours!!!" button