wareya wrote:I never had to get over a hump playing FPSs, everything is pretty simple. Quake Live's FFA is about denying item pickups to the resident slummer, for example, or else you're never going to be able to get any kills. CA on the other hand is taking advantage of free flanks while your team keeps a good position. Just watching someone do an FPS for a short while teaches me enough about it that I don't need to get over any serious hump, and at a certain point the DM stops being important and complex strategy starts taking reign - that's when FPSs actually get interesting. For TF2, ESEA's high IM is at that point. You don't have a hump to get over before you start getting to that point, because the objectives, and what you should be doing, and how to go about it, are all totally intuitive. They make sense. It's not like DotA were you have something obvious to do but you need to spend a week of playing to figure out how to even do it, against people who aren't total shit. Games like quake and TF2 are different, you can hop in with marginal competitive experience in anything, and granted that you have the mechanical skill for it, learn how the game works and why in a really short time.
If you're playing a fighting game, you won't be able to do anything half the time as a newbie, because you're probably going to be in a lock, or in starcraft you're going to be massively out-played or at a massive unit disadvantage. In TF2 and Quake you're a single unit with a single position and it's hard to lock you out of being able to do anything at all. Getting juggled in the air is hard, and for the few situations where it's really common (bhopping into someone with the LG at high speed, or in TF2, letting a pyro get near a corner and you) you learn really fast that it's not a good idea to do that. By the very nature of the games, a slight skill disadvantage at low levels is going to have a large effect, because the skill curve is really high (easy to progress) early on. It's when you get to higher skill levels that things start plateauing. Because the game's so easy to get good at when you don't know what you're doing, the "hump" isn't when you start playing, it's when you start understanding that the game is tactical at its core.
Picking up on mechanical things is easy. Games that are extremely mechanically punishing like fighting games, or games where the mechanical is just about how case you can execute commands, that's hard to pick up? They're really hard to learn, because strategy is learned from experience and when you need to know how to work your mechanics for your strats to work, or your strategy is /in/ the mechanical part of the game, you can't even pick the game up enough to be immersed before you have to start getting good at it. With FPSs like quake, the mechanical skill is at the forefront, and lets you dive in and get a feel for the game and start messing around and having fun, before you have to be any good at the meta.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the games are just mechanical. You can't win serious quake games with just an aimbot. You have to understand what you're doing. Oh, I know exactly where that guy's going! I'm going to shoot a rocket across the map and get a direct hit on him - the moment that he enters my line of sight. Oh, he's going for the red armor! I'm going to get the two yellows and lay a grenade trap at the teleporter exit, then get ready for an LG gith - if I lose I can jump away and pick up the armor shards and health above me, because I have the position advantage! I'll have to go back down there soon, though, because the mega's spawning! Things like that are what make Quake the game it is, it's not about combo locking or countering enemy strategies. It's about predicting what's going to happen, knowing who controls what, and what battles you can get away with fighting.
That all comes from experience, and it's really easy to get experience. You don't even have to be playing. You can watch someone else, and understand what they're doing, and learn from it - even if you're totally horrible. Even if you have not even the slightest bit of skill or experience, you can spectate a high level player, and understand what's going on, and learn for you own playing like that. Even if you're fighting a horribly losing battle in quake Duel, you can learn a lot from it. Fighting games aren't like that. Fighting games are hard and punishing, because they're not intuitive and they're not open. You can't learn a lot about fighting games just by sitting there and watching someone else, or watching someone beat on you. Well, maybe SSB.
just gonna say you haven't played enough fighters to know that. Go play some Super turbo, that game is not mechanically demanding, hell, play SSF4, and pick a character like T. Hawk. Not every fighting game is marvel or guilty gear and requires crazy execution. Learning why things work is also part of the shit you learned and passed in your fps's.
Rocket jumping isn't this super intuitive thing, but you probably do it like second nature now. So it plinking, double tapping, tiger kneeing, tons of motions. You act like you can't play a fighter unless you know all the crazy combos. Well last i checked you can't play quake worth a shit unless you can move around properly, you can't even duel decently unless you can strafe jump. You won't get anywhere in quake without some time to learn the movement and learn the timings, same thing with learning move properties.
Your essentially saying fps are easy to learn for you cause you put hundreds of hours learning how to aim and move in other games and trying to apply it when you have to learn a completely new control scheme and system. And you can't learn from getting your ass beat in fighters? I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you talking about? You want to know what happens if you duel some players that will fucking smash your face in quake? they can literally beat you brain dead with just aim and literally the only response to even GET to the actual strategy is to get better aim. You know how many execution training lab freaks that suck shit in marvel cause they don't understand strategy? don't know how to setup the hit? Execution is barrier for fps and fighters, about equally as well, hell its more skewed torweds fps games actually. Do you know how many really really good ssf4 players that have pretty poor execution?
Hers a good example of something really simple like your strategy rant. Hey this rufus is always grabbing after blocked divekicks. Guess i should shoryuken or tech to counter that. Hey this zangief is doing alot of neutral jumping. Maybe i should jump hk out of the air with ryu. Not intuitive and open? Well I don't what open means, but i think you may have lost what intuitive means, rocket jumping isn't intuitive, air strafing isn't intuitive, bunny jumping isn't intuitive. It may be intuitive since you have been doing it so long, but go explain doing strafe jumping to your average pc gamer and see if they think its intuitive. You can just look at a quake game with no experience and understand what is going on? wtf im sorry. But how many pub tf2 players have spectated a TF2 match or quake match and have come to drastically wrong conclusions of how to play. How many open 6v6 players are playing sort of incorrectly from a strategic point of view? I think your confusing your solid amount of fps experience with intuitiveness. Oh yeah, there is a player, by the name of snakeeyes, he started playing Super street fighter turbo: HDR 6 months before the first evo it was held at and he won the whole thing, with the worst character in the game with an xbox 360 fightpad, this was his first fighter that he took seriously and beat players that had been play super turbo for over a decade, oh yeah, it was also his second tournament. read about it here: http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2010/7/12/evolution-2010-the-miracle-man-with-zangief.html
You know how many people learn fighters by watching better players? my painwheel got so much better by watching severin play in tourneys. Hell, you can probably learn MORE in fighters than from watching fps cause there is less hidden information. Hey, why is valle throwing out standing heavy kick against rufus? ask questions of what standing heavy kick covers and you probably have your answer.
Don't confuse your hundreds of hours in fps as if fps games are intuitive. They are not, you went through a lot of muscle memory and general basic strategies memorized very early on in your pubbing days. You played with people bad over and over till you could get your mechanics to become a pub star at one point. Fighters have to be played properly to learn from them. Playing fighters without understanding basic concepts of 2d fighters is like playing quake duel without trying to even get armor. You have to understand the basics of ANY game to understand why your losing